Ever dreamt about stepping onto the football field, not as a player, but an official? Join us on an exhilarating journey into the world of high school football officiating with our hosts Joel Pogar and Kirk Russell of the Colorado Football Officials Association. We'll share the nuts and bolts of becoming an official; from selecting the right association and undergoing the right training to managing expectations as you move up the ranks. We'll also emphasize the critical role of teamwork in officiating, essentially becoming a piece of the puzzle in every play situation.
Beyond the whistle blowing and flag throwing, officiating is an emotional journey. We'll delve into handling the inevitable frustrations from coaches, developing a deeper understanding of the game, and appreciating the significance of football in the high school curriculum. We shed light on the evolving dynamics of officiating, with fewer educators on board and the impacts this shift has on the field.
To wrap up, we'll explore the journey of self-improvement that officiating demands. From learning to accept coaching, developing personality skills, to finding your niche in the officiating world. We highlight the need to maintain physical fitness and the importance of striking a balance between athleticism and physical well-being. Plus, we'll share why having family support is crucial when embarking on this journey. Sit tight as we unpack the characteristics of a successful official, the art of quick decision-making, overcoming the fear of errors, and how making mistakes are stepping stones rather than stumbling blocks in the officiating world. Prepare to be inspired!
Ever dreamt about stepping onto the football field, not as a player, but an official? Join us on an exhilarating journey into the world of high school football officiating with our hosts Joel Pogar and Kirk Russell of the Colorado Football Officials Association. We'll share the nuts and bolts of becoming an official; from selecting the right association and undergoing the right training to managing expectations as you move up the ranks. We'll also emphasize the critical role of teamwork in officiating, essentially becoming a piece of the puzzle in every play situation.
Beyond the whistle blowing and flag throwing, officiating is an emotional journey. We'll delve into handling the inevitable frustrations from coaches, developing a deeper understanding of the game, and appreciating the significance of football in the high school curriculum. We shed light on the evolving dynamics of officiating, with fewer educators on board and the impacts this shift has on the field.
To wrap up, we'll explore the journey of self-improvement that officiating demands. From learning to accept coaching, developing personality skills, to finding your niche in the officiating world. We highlight the need to maintain physical fitness and the importance of striking a balance between athleticism and physical well-being. Plus, we'll share why having family support is crucial when embarking on this journey. Sit tight as we unpack the characteristics of a successful official, the art of quick decision-making, overcoming the fear of errors, and how making mistakes are stepping stones rather than stumbling blocks in the officiating world. Prepare to be inspired!
Welcome to your first downs.
Speaker 2:The podcast dedicated to helping new high school football officials, here are your hosts, joel Pogar and Kirk Russell from the Colorado.
Speaker 1:Football Officials Association.
Speaker 2:Well, good morning, good afternoon or good evening, depending on where and when you're listening to us. Thanks for joining us today on our inaugural episode of your First Downs. My name is Joel Pogar, I will be your host and I am joined by Kirk Russell, my co-host. We are both members of the Colorado Football Officials Association and put this podcast together to help new officials get a fast start on the field. So let's take it off. Kirk, can you give us a quick intro about yourself? Let's let everybody know who they're listening to tonight.
Speaker 1:Hey y'all, I'm excited to get to talk about football. We're in the pre-season 2023 and it seems like we've got a couple months to prepare, but it's going to be on our calendar before we know it.
Speaker 2:Now, just for background purposes, this is my 12th year of officiating on the field for high school football. I've been fortunate enough to work a little bit at college semi-pro arena football, the women's leagues and so forth that come through Denver Probably over 300 games under my belt of one level or another in the last 12 years. Kirk, tell us a little about yourself. How did you get started in this and how long have you been doing this?
Speaker 1:You know, I got out of college and played football in college and it was a fall. I remember my wife looking at me saying you've got to do something because you're driving me crazy, and she saw in the newspaper ad for officiating football back in 1990. I'll be going on 34 years of officiating and have loved it the entire time.
Speaker 2:Wow, 30 years of high school football. That's a long time to be on the field. I appreciate you giving that much back to high school sports here in the Denver area. Well, kirk and I were actually talking a couple weeks ago and, as Kirk mentioned, we're right in the pre-season time for the 2023 season. We're just starting to see kids kind of hit the practice fields around town. New officials classes are starting, recruiting is in full swing for new officials and Kirk and I really wanted to sort of give back and help the new officials get the best start they could on the field.
Speaker 2:So we decided to put this 10 episode podcast together. Not sure if we'll continue it past 10 episodes. If we've gotten enough to talk about or enough interest in the podcast, we'll keep going, but for right now, we've agreed to start with these 10 episodes and cover all the topics that may be of interest to a new official. So, kirk, let's start right at the beginning. Let's just say somebody's sitting at home. I'm really impassioned about football. I decided I wanted to get off the couch this season. How do I get involved? What's the first thing I need to do to make my progress toward the field?
Speaker 1:that answer is probably different around the country and now different than it was in 1990, now you can go on the internet and do enough search on a Google search and find maybe some contact information and make a phone call and if you have an interest in officiating and that person knows about it, they will find a way to get you involved.
Speaker 2:So the best way to get started maybe is to jump online and do an internet search for football officiating or wherever your city is Denver football officiating, colorado Springs football officiating or search for local associations. They're really the ones that kind of help organize the officials. Is that probably the best way to do it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think different states have different structures. A lot of times the youth programs are where officials start and there's some tough duties in that youth area. I'm not that it's not that it's easy in high school, but a lot of people cut their teeth in those Saturday afternoon games and then they either, like that, make a little money there or they want to move up the ranks, and the good ones can move up pretty quick, but yeah I think it's important to always understand that different associations cover different purposes.
Speaker 1:The college guys have their associations, the high school have theirs. There's different regions around every state. I'm sure that there's some leadership that you have to work through. So, yeah, it's as much figuring out and navigating the officiating map as anything to get started.
Speaker 2:But let's take the next step in the process, Kirk. So let's say I found out the local association or who I need to connect with and I've kind of gotten into the pool of new officials. There's a class. Let's just say I'm going to class right now. What are my expectations when I get done with a class? Am I going to be working the top level five A varsity games right out of class? Because I do think some of the officials come in with some misconceptions that as soon as they, you know, read a few books or go to a mechanics class, they're going to be working the high level games.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's always there's a nervous moment. I can remember. I think everybody that's officiated remembers that first flag they've thrown or that first whistle they blew. It's tough and you know the idea that guys think they can move up the ranks real quick.
Speaker 1:It is a team effort. It takes a crew to get it right. You're not going to know everything every play. You're going to be a piece of the puzzle as every play develops and there's a lot more to it than just knowing the game of football. And I think everybody that steps into the uniform, or even before you put a uniform on, you take that test and you think, gosh, I've been playing football since I was in sixth grade. I watch it every Saturday and Sunday. I know how to do this. And the next thing you know you realize I don't know how to do any of this. All this stuff they're telling me is foreign. It's definitions, it's details and why the rule is the way it is, and I think that turns a lot of people off.
Speaker 1:They realize I've got to study, I'm just going to jump in and put a whistle in my mouth and be very good the first time, and I think the good officials really do realize where they can get their assistance from and how to develop. I think sometimes we fail some officials. We put them into games too soon and it can turn you off. You can get a sour taste. You know you get criticized not only by fans and coaches but even your own. I mean, we're very, very critical of our own membership because we want to be perfect and that's not possible, but we certainly want to look good. I always say we're as good as the bottom of the list and we all walk off the field. We're the same person.
Speaker 2:Kirk, just a quick story, and I don't know if you'll remember this from 12 years ago, but I actually got my start in officiating because of my wife. I was watching an NFL game one night and was yelling at the TV at some call and I think it was either a Hockley or a Stereotor and she said well, if you're so good, why don't you get out there, man? I signed up for classes the next day and I was on the field a few short weeks later and you were there at that very first scrimmage. I said, hey, I'm just here to watch. And you said, no, you're not, you're gonna put your stripes on. So I went to my car, got the stripes, put them on, set up on the sideline as a wing official the very first play it's a jet sweep run to my side and all of a sudden this huge wall of 17 and 18, 200 pound, 300 pound kids comes at me and I'll never forget it. They cleared me out, they cleared out the chainscrew, we all went down and it was kind of a baptismal moment, like I'm really here and it was one of the most exciting days of my life and I've been in love with it ever since.
Speaker 2:My wife says she's a football widow every fall, but hey, it's only 10, 12 weeks out of the year and I think I make up for it the other months of the year. So let's talk about the next thing. Kirk, we've mentioned the passion for getting into it, how to get into it. Let's talk about maybe some of the not so good stuff in officiating. What happens when you're working your very first game maybe you got your freshman game, sub-varsity game and you get an angry coach, you get an angry parent or something doesn't go quite right. How do you handle that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's one of the most difficult components of this is emotions. The game is intense. There's a lot of emotions in it, not only the kids, but the coaches and you're certainly interacting with coaches all the time and the kids. One of the messages I always share with officials is you cannot elevate your emotions even to the level that the coach has, because the coach is not gonna come down when you bring that frustration up to his frustration level. You've gotta stay below that and then he'll drop down. And if you show calmness and you'll get a lot of respect, if you can show a coach that you're comfortable with what you did.
Speaker 1:Maybe you screwed it up and there's nothing wrong with saying you know what coach might've missed it. I didn't see that. I'll look for it next time. And he's gonna probably be in your grill and throw all sorts of temper tantrums. And sometimes, as you know, joel, coaches sometimes do that animated act to show their players how important that game is to them and their expectations. And I've even had coaches walk out and tell me hey, I'm gonna make this look like I am frustrated beyond belief. You guys are doing a great job. How's your son doing? Blah, blah, blah and walk back frustrated, but I want my kids to know how important this is, cause I think they're flat right now. So there's a lot to the game that we don't even understand when we first get involved.
Speaker 2:You know, karka, it's funny that you talk about some of those coach tactics, and this was maybe two years ago had a similar incident where I was working the referee spot for one of the larger schools here in the Denver area and I actually knew the coach Just after being around the game for 12 years. You kind of build sort of an informal relationship with the coaches. He was a good guy, but right in the middle of the game he in his team's down, he starts screaming, throwing his clipboard, marching out onto the field and kind of quietly under his breath he said throw the UNS flag and he wanted the unsportsmanlike conduct file. He wanted that to fire up his players and it actually worked. I mean, his players were pretty fired up after all that happened and everybody kind of kind of calmed down from the one play. But it's those, those sort of coaching tactics, those nuances of the game, the emotions of the game, that you have to learn as a new official and you're not gonna know those the very first day that you step out on the field. So you should be like a sponge, taking all this in and not only learning the rules and the mechanics but learning the strategies of the game, learning the individual coaches. There's a lot to, there's a lot to take in, and I know you've been doing this 30 years. This is my 12th year and I feel like I'm still learning every time I get onto the field. So you can expect to be the best official on the field your very first day on the field, although we'd like to be, and I hope they are. But just understand, there's a growing process to get to this.
Speaker 2:Kirk, let's switch gears for just one second and actually talk about the game of football at the high school level. You know, one thing I noticed when I first got started is there were a lot of teachers that were either officials or coaches or part of the program, and the most successful teams seem to be those coaches that also had an educational background. I think a lot of people forget that this is part of the high school curriculum. All sports right are and there's valuable lessons to be learned, not only in football but lacrosse, baseball, hockey. You know all the other extracurricular activities in high school. What is your opinion, you know, about what's kind of happened or how the game is transitioned over the last 10 years or so?
Speaker 1:I think, one thing that we have lost track of over the years, and maybe I say this because I worked with a lot of teachers or baseball coaches that were officiating football or you know they just they crossed over Basketball coaches that officiated football. In the fall, I think there's a lot less educators in stripes right now. I remember back in the day I was an engineer, consulting engineer I couldn't get off work to do a JV game. I had to take vacation and the teachers were off school, so they were ideal for filling in those varsity games.
Speaker 2:And I was kind of jealous of them being able to do that.
Speaker 1:But I think we've got, as officials, we've got to pay attention that this football game is part of the education system. We get all wrapped up that the game of football is played by some adults. You know these boys act like they're adults. They're really just overgrown kids at age 16. So it's part of the process and I'm disappointed. I think we do have some coaches that don't focus on it as the education piece. But man, when you get a coach that does, it's just, it's a dream come true for the whole game and watching the kids respond to that and respect all that stuff wraps into what we do this for.
Speaker 2:Kirk, let's talk a little bit about career path as an official. We're fortunate enough here in Colorado that we actually have four alumni from our association as well as Colorado that are now NFL officials and been very proud of them. You know, when new officials come in kind of back to the expectations thing we were talking a little bit ago how quickly can somebody move up, how can they progress If they really have a mindset to do this and go to college? And then you know, beyond the NFL and that kind of thing, how quickly does it take to get there? Cause I think you and I have all met, you know, the one or two officials that come in kind of overconfident, let's just say that. And you know they say I'm going to work high school this year, college next year, I should be in the NFL by year three. And we both know that that doesn't happen. So can you talk a little bit about career path as an official? How long did it take those you know Ford Denver alumni to be able to make it to that elite level?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, you and I both seen officials come in and you can recognize really talented for whatever reason. There's just the mixture of the ability to learn and find where, where to the touch points on how to move yourself up. I talk sometimes about. Guys will say, oh, it's so political and I go. You know what? If you say it's political, there's a chance you're not as good as you think you are.
Speaker 1:You kind of have to figure out where you fit, how to learn, how to do what you're doing, where to where to tie into the guys that are moving up. Some guys get disgruntled. If you start to move towards them you're just going to end up lower in the ranks you got to. You got to figure out how to move, and it's not just on the football field, it's personality skills, it's understanding. I tell a lot of new officials you got to learn how to be coached and officiating.
Speaker 1:I use the example of my kid was a great baseball player and I'd take him to batting practice or a trainer to teach him how to bat better. And this trainer said this coach says hold the bat like this. This one says hold the bat like this. And I'm thinking I paid for both of these and they're almost exact opposite. But it really comes down to learning the information you get and how to apply it to the field when the moment is needed All of that stuff. I would say those guys at the NFL level have learned how to find their space in the whole operation and moving up as part of that, if that's your goal.
Speaker 2:So, Kirk, what I'm hearing is it's not just what happens on the field, it's the whole package right. It's personality, it's ability to learn, it's the ability to be coached, it's the ability and the drive and desire to move up. It's a lot of things to be able to get to that next level.
Speaker 1:It's not just how you do on the football field.
Speaker 2:Kirk. Let's talk about another question that I frequently get, either from new officials or somebody looking into becoming an official, and that's fitness. How important is it at the high school level? I mean, let's just say I'm that guy that's spent the last 10 years on the couch watching a lot of games on TV, eating a lot of sandwiches, potato chips and drinking a lot of Coke or Pepsi. If you're a Pepsi fan, do I have to be an elite athlete to get out there and participate in high school sports? I mean, what if I've been kind of sedentary for the last five, 10 years or so? I mean, do I need to hire a trainer Now if I want to get back out on the field and get involved in high school sports?
Speaker 1:No, and that's. It's important, especially at the high school level, that people understand. And I think there's a negative to not looking fit I've always talked about you gotta look good, you gotta look the part, you gotta look comfortable when, as soon as you get out of your car at a JV game, you have eyes on you and many times you are the enemy because they think that you are gonna screw up a call in their game and so they're watching every detail. They watch how you walk, they watch how you smile, how you interact with some people. You gotta show confidence, but not be cocky. And, yes, if you're really heavy, I think there's just a natural tendency for fans and coaches to think, oh, he's not as good and so it's not a. You don't have to be a fit athlete. Matter of fact. We talk about you move less, you see more, not to say that you should look lazy, because then that's the other extreme. If you look lazy now, you're also judged as not being good.
Speaker 1:So there's just a balance of athleticism and fitness. But no, I would not say that somebody should avoid getting into officiating because they don't feel like they are fit enough. I think that comes with kind of all that other stuff that rolls into their talent. I wanted to throw this in as well. We were talking about expectations and you mentioned the guy that's sitting on the couch eating a sandwich. It is so critical.
Speaker 1:All those guys at the NFL level would tell you it's important that you have buy-in from your family because it is an impact, and here in Denver, Colorado, we work on Thursday nights, Friday nights and Saturdays, Sometimes some JV games on Monday, and halfway through the season your spouse significant other is going to look at you and go okay, when's the season over, Because this is a little bit rough, I'm taking care of kids. And then you come home and either you're kicking the dog because you got yelled at by a coach, or you'd come back and you're excited and you had a beer with the buddies and the spouse is going okay, when is the end of the season? So it's important you get buy-in from the family.
Speaker 2:Kirk, that's an excellent point and I couldn't agree more. When I first got started in officiating, I don't think my wife really understood the kind of the time commitment that was involved with it and I wanted to get better as quickly as I could. So if you're just starting out in this, make sure you have the support of your significant other, your kids, maybe even your job, if you want to check out a work a little early to catch your work, a JV or sub-varsity game. So all great and excellent points. Thanks for bringing those up, kirk. Maybe somebody listening to this is still on the fence of whether officiating is right for them and they're still kind of thinking through it without having a scientific methodology behind it or anything. And based on your 30 years of experience you were also one of the CFOA presidents for a while Is there a profile of an individual that makes a good official? What are some of the things that you think help people be successful in high school officiating?
Speaker 1:I've always said that, and we struggle in the leadership roles around the state of Colorado. Where do we find good officials? And there's a desire to, hey, let's grab somebody right out of college like you and I talked about. The tough part about that is that you start having kids and the kids get involved in soccer or do the things that are demanding on you, and then it becomes a spouse effort and it kind of it makes it tough.
Speaker 1:I've often thought that the ideal candidate is the dad that's maybe got his son his last year of high school football. He's seen officiating and he kind of still wants to be around it, loves the game. It's a great time to get acclimated, maybe even right at the end of your kid's career, because a lot of times those last few years your son's waving at you as he's driving out of the driveway and that's about all you see of him, except on Friday nights with his uniform on. So I think it's it's really an ideal moment to say, hey, this is something I want to do. You don't have to feel like you've waited too long. I don't believe there's. We've got guys that are working into their late seventies. I think if you said, hey, I'm 50, I don't have time, nah, 10, 15, 20 years of officiating is is easily achieved.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about another aspect of the game and that's the ability to make quick decisions. You know, I can't remember where I heard this was either a camp clinic, you know something like that but I heard that you know a football official has to make 10 decisions on every play and considering that you know most plays last between six and eight seconds, you're making more than one decision per second. So some people have a stress factor with that. And I was working with a young female official last year. She had a real passion for the game, she knew the rules, she knew the mechanics, but she was really struggling on the field and when I was talking to her she said she's so fearful of making a mistake right, either throwing a flag or not throwing a flag, misunderstanding the rule or a mechanic. How does a new official sort of get over that analysis paralysis and start to trust themselves when they're on the field to make a decision?
Speaker 1:Well, it's a great question, and I think everybody's been through that. I think if I were to have any wisdom to help with that, it's we, as, as starting officials, we think we have to. We have to see it all and and then, once you become more of a veteran, our communication, once you've been in it a while, is always we've got to get the big stuff. We've got to get the stuff that matters to the play, the result of the play and, and as an example, holding and passing interference. Those are judgment calls, and a lot of times, as you get years under your belt, you start putting tools in your toolbox such as down a distance, it's third and long, just like when you play.
Speaker 1:Coaches know what the likelihood of a pass is. We should have that same premonition that it's likely a pass. And hey, they like to throw to this guy. And so there's just this hidden information that allows you to pull some pieces together. Is there a chance of holding on the other side of the field? That you have to see, and the answer is no. Somebody else is taking care of that.
Speaker 1:We want the fouls that are big and have an impact on the play, the one the coaches want to see called, not every nitpick play that you think you're responsible to call. And I think, once you start realizing we want to get the big stuff and the things we miss are not as significant as the things we get and get wrong. And so I think, if we just sort that out, that there's a need not to see everything, there's a need to see the big stuff and, in particular, safety issues. When we see something that looks like, the fans aren't going to be happy, the coaches aren't going to be happy, unless there's a flag on the field. That's kind of what we want to make sure we don't ever miss.
Speaker 2:So there's two things I always tell new officials when they're just getting started, and number one is you're going to make mistakes. Don't be afraid of the mistakes. Learn from them. This is a new application hobby, whatever you want to call it. When you learn something new for the first time, whether it's playing guitar or how to play chess or whatever you're going to make a mistake. Shouldn't be afraid of the mistake, but you should learn from those mistakes. The second thing I tell new officials is focus on one aspect of the game that you want to work on for that game and then pick something for the next game. So, for example, you work on a game today. Maybe you're going to focus on having the best line mechanics possible. The next game, you're going to focus on the rules or holding or passing, or specifically passing or appearance for that game. So it's not trying to take everything and I think, as you just said a moment ago on every play and focusing on particular aspects of it.
Speaker 1:If you just understand that everybody is going to make mistakes and you'll get better at it and wanting to get better is important If you think you're good enough it's time to hang it up, because there's ways to improve every step of the way.
Speaker 2:The time is really going quick on this first podcast and I can't believe we're almost 25 minutes into it. I want to make sure we address one more topic that I get asked a lot from new officials, and that is how do I know which position to work? So here in Colorado we work primarily five man mechanics and the high school level. During varsity assignments Even our sub varsity, the freshman and typical JV games we'll have four or five officials. On the rare occasion there might be three, but there's different positions available. Right, there's Linesman Back, judge Empire, et cetera.
Speaker 2:As a new official clerk, which one of those should I be gravitating to? Is one easier than another to learn or get through? I guess the one piece of advice I've got is never take the R or the referee spot as a new official. Sometimes an assigner may not know you and will put you there by accident, and so if you get assigned the referee spot, make sure you don't take that, or you turn back that game or talk to the assigner. But, kirk, what about the other spots, the, you know, the linesman line, judge back, judge umpire? Is there one spot you think a new official should start in?
Speaker 1:I would assume it's fairly standard that associations put the newer officials on the sideline. It could be a myriad of reasons. One of them could be they're tired of having coaches screaming in their ear so you put the new guy out there to cut his teeth on those uh those comments from the coach. But more likely, the wing position is a pretty good starting point. There's you're looking at half the field, which kind of narrows the information that you're gathering and that line of scrimmage space and the chains and things like that. It's just a vantage point that I think allows you to not move as much. Your responsibilities of those high profile calls tend to be a little bit lower. Not that they go away, but you you know the referee is is the visual everybody has and that's not a good place to start as a brand new official. Umpires would probably be the second position I would think you'd get into A lot of times see bigger guys go working umpire.
Speaker 1:It's changed over the years but it's it's. Until you get comfortable with where you need to be and what all you're supposed to be looking at, it can feel like you're in the middle of a of a car crash and you're just trying to avoid bodies and you know, the back judge position, the guy that's in the very deep with the receivers, the deep receivers and, in particular, the punt returners. Those are some stressful moments. I never wanted any part of that that. That's some high profile stuff and probably not one that you would typically throw a brand new official in. There's just a lot goes on back there as a back judge. We typically say that back judge, back there is really the, the referee of the defense. It's kind of dividing the field up, and so I would say that wing positions normally the one to start at.
Speaker 2:You know it's funny, kirk, different strokes for different folks. You mentioned not liking the back judge spot and I love it back there. I mean I worked the referee spot for a number of years as a crew chief and so forth. I really enjoyed that. Just don't have the time to lead a crew anymore and I wanted to, you know, still have an important part of the game and that back judge spot really allows me to sort of get the best of both worlds back there. I don't have the coaches barking at me, still involved in a lot of the big plays, so I really love it back there. Now you, I know you like to work the umpire spot. I'll just tell you you're more of a man than I am, but every single time I've worked that umpire position and I mean every time, which has been like maybe a half dozen at most I've ended up on my keyster. So that is, that's just not a position that I'm built for or I'm comfortable in. I will take anything on the field but the umpire spot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I you know back to that, that back judge role I've I've often wondered if there's just some guidance on that. I mean, if once I'm done on the wing, maybe I want to look at one of the other positions. To me, the difference between an umpire and a back judge, I think the basketball type guys high school college basketball guys there's a lot more hand, arm positioning, running and I think the wrestling guys are probably better umpires, cause that's what happens in the middle of that line of scrimmage is kind of a wrestling match, trying to figure out whether it's a legal move or an illegal move as a wrestler holding or tripping or things like that versus again the basketball foul kind of mentality that I think a back judge would carry it into the game.
Speaker 2:Well, kirk, we're already at our time for this first episode. I can't believe 30 minutes of talking about football and officiating has went by that fast. So I guess when we're talking about football and officiating, a time really does fly. So I appreciate you joining me tonight as my co-host and for the lowest listeners. Stay tuned to us for next week. We're going to be talking about rules, we may get some coach interviews and we're going to talk about assignments and just all aspects of getting involved and getting off to a good start of officiating as part of this your First Downs podcast. Kirk, how does that sound Awesome? All right, well, I wanted to thank all of our listeners for joining us and spending 30 minutes of their day with us. Hopefully this your First Downs podcast was beneficial. If you have questions for Kirk and I that you'd like to be addressed, go to the YourFirstDownscom website. Again, that's YourFirstDownscom. You can send Kirk and I a live message and we will answer it on air. Thanks again, everybody. Have a great week. See you for our next episode next Thursday.